Starter Related Problems
11-18-2016, 10:31 AM
#21
Senior Member
Ok, that's the older style. Under that brass colored cover is the solenoid. The newer ones have a different solenoid to actuate the bendix and starter. I think that cover is sealed to the starter body.
I will say that there's 2 types of starter actions for the bendix. 1 is a rod that pushes the gear forward to engage the flywheel. The other is a special helical gear that throws the gear forward to engage the flywheel. It's been a long time since I've rebuilt one, so I'm not sure which this is. I'm betting on the helical gear. If the starter gear has hit the flywheel hard enough, it could have mushroomed that helical gear so that the starter gear won't come out. You will probably need to replace the starter again. You should still get it tested though, and look at the hog head (bushing and frame for the end of the starter) for cracks.
I will say that there's 2 types of starter actions for the bendix. 1 is a rod that pushes the gear forward to engage the flywheel. The other is a special helical gear that throws the gear forward to engage the flywheel. It's been a long time since I've rebuilt one, so I'm not sure which this is. I'm betting on the helical gear. If the starter gear has hit the flywheel hard enough, it could have mushroomed that helical gear so that the starter gear won't come out. You will probably need to replace the starter again. You should still get it tested though, and look at the hog head (bushing and frame for the end of the starter) for cracks.
11-18-2016, 11:51 AM
#22
Ok, that's the older style. Under that brass colored cover is the solenoid. The newer ones have a different solenoid to actuate the bendix and starter. I think that cover is sealed to the starter body.
I will say that there's 2 types of starter actions for the bendix. 1 is a rod that pushes the gear forward to engage the flywheel. The other is a special helical gear that throws the gear forward to engage the flywheel. It's been a long time since I've rebuilt one, so I'm not sure which this is. I'm betting on the helical gear. If the starter gear has hit the flywheel hard enough, it could have mushroomed that helical gear so that the starter gear won't come out. You will probably need to replace the starter again. You should still get it tested though, and look at the hog head (bushing and frame for the end of the starter) for cracks.
I will say that there's 2 types of starter actions for the bendix. 1 is a rod that pushes the gear forward to engage the flywheel. The other is a special helical gear that throws the gear forward to engage the flywheel. It's been a long time since I've rebuilt one, so I'm not sure which this is. I'm betting on the helical gear. If the starter gear has hit the flywheel hard enough, it could have mushroomed that helical gear so that the starter gear won't come out. You will probably need to replace the starter again. You should still get it tested though, and look at the hog head (bushing and frame for the end of the starter) for cracks.
I thought this was my solenoid...mounted to the truck beside the battery...
11-18-2016, 12:46 PM
#23
If the new relay matches the old one then you have the correct item.
I assume you have it all wired correctly (there are diagrams on the Internet), the contacts where everything connects are clean and shiny (including the battery terminals) (dirty contacts impede the flow of electricity), and your battery is fully charged (charge it overnight anyway).
To test the new relay put your truck in park and set the parking brake. Take a large screwdriver, a heavy rod, a pipe, etc. and press it against the two large bolts. It will spark but you won't feel it. Just be sure to hold the rod firmly against the bolts. Your starter should engage and you can start the truck this way if the key is in the On/Run position.
If the starter sounds normal and the truck tries to start your relay is bad.
If the starter turns weakly or doesn't move you have a bad starter.
If the starter works fine when shorting the relay contacts (the big bolts) but won't work when you turn the key you have a problem in the ignition switch or it's wiring. Or some other mystery sensor is telling the truck to not start. Being in gear (R, D, 2, 1) is one example of this.
The starter circuit isn't complex and it's all easily accessible except for the ignition switch and wiring to/from the steering column. Problem areas are (in no particular order):
1. Weak, bad battery.
2. Bad starter relay (on the wall near the battery).
3. Bad starter.
4. Miswired circuits.
5. Bad (dirty, rusty, corroded) connectors or wiring. Check your +/positive/red wires and your ground connections.
6. Bad ignition switch.
I assume you have it all wired correctly (there are diagrams on the Internet), the contacts where everything connects are clean and shiny (including the battery terminals) (dirty contacts impede the flow of electricity), and your battery is fully charged (charge it overnight anyway).
To test the new relay put your truck in park and set the parking brake. Take a large screwdriver, a heavy rod, a pipe, etc. and press it against the two large bolts. It will spark but you won't feel it. Just be sure to hold the rod firmly against the bolts. Your starter should engage and you can start the truck this way if the key is in the On/Run position.
If the starter sounds normal and the truck tries to start your relay is bad.
If the starter turns weakly or doesn't move you have a bad starter.
If the starter works fine when shorting the relay contacts (the big bolts) but won't work when you turn the key you have a problem in the ignition switch or it's wiring. Or some other mystery sensor is telling the truck to not start. Being in gear (R, D, 2, 1) is one example of this.
The starter circuit isn't complex and it's all easily accessible except for the ignition switch and wiring to/from the steering column. Problem areas are (in no particular order):
1. Weak, bad battery.
2. Bad starter relay (on the wall near the battery).
3. Bad starter.
4. Miswired circuits.
5. Bad (dirty, rusty, corroded) connectors or wiring. Check your +/positive/red wires and your ground connections.
6. Bad ignition switch.
For completeness:
I forgot about the MLPS or manual lever position sensor switch that is located on the driver's side of the transmission. If this is not indicating a safe-start condition then you won't be able to operate the starter either.
11-18-2016, 05:46 PM
#24
Senior Member
To put it simply, that hump has a relay inside that transfers power to the internal windings of the starter. It's considered a solenoid, but it's really a type of relay.
11-18-2016, 05:53 PM
#25
Technically...Relays contain solenoids, solenoids don't contain relays. The solenoid is the wire coil around the movable rod. Running an electric current through the wire creates a magnetic field which acts on the rod causing it to move.
This rod can be used to close a switch (as in the relay mounted by the battery) or it can move the gear out to engage the flexplate/flywheel (as in the starter itself). The same concept is used to propel mag-lev trains, electro-magnetic guns, etc.
This rod can be used to close a switch (as in the relay mounted by the battery) or it can move the gear out to engage the flexplate/flywheel (as in the starter itself). The same concept is used to propel mag-lev trains, electro-magnetic guns, etc.
11-18-2016, 08:14 PM
#26
Technically...Relays contain solenoids, solenoids don't contain relays. The solenoid is the wire coil around the movable rod. Running an electric current through the wire creates a magnetic field which acts on the rod causing it to move.
This rod can be used to close a switch (as in the relay mounted by the battery) or it can move the gear out to engage the flexplate/flywheel (as in the starter itself). The same concept is used to propel mag-lev trains, electro-magnetic guns, etc.
This rod can be used to close a switch (as in the relay mounted by the battery) or it can move the gear out to engage the flexplate/flywheel (as in the starter itself). The same concept is used to propel mag-lev trains, electro-magnetic guns, etc.
OK, I think I see what you are saying. I had a little time to look at the truck tonight so I rotated the engine several times and tried to start it each time I rotated it...I wasn't sure how much to rotate it so i did it several times...each time the starter would just spin. If it was a bad spot in the flex plate, wouldn't the starter engage it when I turned the engine?
11-19-2016, 01:16 PM
#27
I hope you weren't turning it with the battery and coil wire connected. The engine can and will start if you turn it manually with these things connected.
Yes, if there was a "bad" spot on the flexplate then turning it should allow the starter to find a "good" spot.
Yes, if there was a "bad" spot on the flexplate then turning it should allow the starter to find a "good" spot.
11-19-2016, 09:41 PM
#28
Since the starter did not find a good spot, is it reasonable to think my issue might be a bad starter even though I've only had it a couple of weeks? If I do end up buying another starter, I am going to get a NEW one as opposed to a refurbished one
11-20-2016, 08:27 AM
#29
Senior Member
Like I said in an earlier post, the helical gear that throws the starter gear might be damaged. You should pull the starter and look at the hog head. Make sure it doesn't have any cracks.
11-20-2016, 08:28 AM
#30
Swap out the starter (again). My buddy came over so that we can do his wheel bearings on his 90 Bronco and when he went to leave starter was just spinning. Told him it sounded like the starter, but he said he just changed it a couple weeks ago. Well guess what, bad starter!
I would for sure file down those burs on the flex plate before you install the new starter. Good Luck
I would for sure file down those burs on the flex plate before you install the new starter. Good Luck